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1984 quote

on Thu Nov 02, 2017 6:22 pm
This quote is said by Julia and occurs when she and Winston meet in the countryside for the first time.

J: "I expected I'm better at finding things out than you are, dear. Tell me, what did you think of me before that day I gave you the note?
He did not feel any temptation to tell lies to her. It was even a sort of love-offering to start off by telling her the worst.
W: "I hated the sight of you", he said. "I wanted to rape you and murder you afterwards. Two weeks ago I thought seriously of smashing your head in with a cobblestone. If you really want to know, I imaged that you had something to do with the Thought Police."
The girl laughed delightedly, evidently taking this as a tribute to the excellence of her disguise.

This quote struck me because of Julia's reaction to Winston telling her that he wanted to rape her and break her skull. She giggled and took it as a compliment. Personally, I think the character of Julia is presented as a sexual object in this novel, and this is just one instance that reinforces my opinion.

First of all, I think that most females (and people of other genders) would not have reacted this way. I, personally, would have felt that this was a threat to my personal safety and wellbeing, because that's a basic instinct when someone says they want to harm you. Instead, Julia finds it amusing, and the couple proceed to have relations in a bush. To me, this screams rape culture. Furthermore, whenever WInston begins to speak about revolting against the government, Julia litterally dozes off. She is portrayed as anti-intellectual to the point of stupidity and thus contributes hardly anything substantial to the novel. Consequently, her relationship with Winston is almost exclusively physical. This is an excessively stereotypical portrayal of the woman. All the important work left to WInston, while Julia supports him in the background.

However, I have to consider that this novel is not recent. It was published in 1949, when women had fewer rights and gender roles were strict. Feminsim was still a very radical notion.
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Re: 1984 quote

on Fri Nov 10, 2017 7:55 pm
WRONG!!!!!!!?!!!!!!!:

JK I agree with you flower  lol!

Julia's response to Winston's deeply concerning comments is less than ideal for the feminist movement, quite frankly the whole interaction is quite twisted. However, to your first point, is it possible that Orwell is trying to convey the couple's utter hatred for the party through what Julia initially represented. It seems to me that her response could be one of agreement to Winston's beliefs (hatred of the totalitarian regime) and not obliviousness?

Luca

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I disagree...

on Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:00 am
Julia and Winston’s characters are very similar and yet very different. The portrayal of Julia, from what i understand, serves as an alternative characterisation of rebellion in the book. At her core, Julia differs from the rest of the Outer Party members. This is underlined many times throughout the book, notably through the author's use of sexual encounters between she and Winston. I’d tend to agree with your thought that Julia is portrayed as un unintelligent character, although i would also say that to blame this on the fact that she is a woman is a gross over exaggeration. Her lack of understanding of her rebellious behavior (by this i mean she just acts against the party with no real purpose other than the satisfaction she gets from knowing that what she's doing is wrong… also she literally gets off on this lol), which ultimately stems from her indoctrination into the Party’s ideology at a young age, is what leads me to believe that she isn't smart. You also mentioned that she has no substantial importance in the book, but again I’d have to disagree and say that she IS a symbol of rebellion and although her tactics may not be as well thought-out as Winston’s, she still contributes greatly to this cause. Also all of her sexual interactions with Winston seem to be consensual and initiated by HER, so to say that this “screams rape culture” is, again, a gross misrepresentation of the facts that you’re using to further your narrative that Orwell’s characterization of women in the book is misogynistic. Smile
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My respectful response

on Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:40 am
I agree with Madeleine, while still respecting the OP's right to hold her opinion. I'd also like to add that I believe that at first Winston and Julia's strictly relationship was strictly sexual and rebellious, although, as it progressed it became a relationship cherished predominantly for its aspects of love and companionship, rather than the practice of adulterous love making. Here's a quote where the two outright acknowledge their love for each other: "The one thing that matters is that we shouldn’t betray one another, although even that can’t make the slightest difference." […] "Confession is not betrayal. What you say or do doesn’t matter, only feelings matter. If they could make me stop loving you – that would be the real betrayal." She thought is over. "They can’t do that," she said finally. "It’s the one thing they can’t do. They can make you say anything – anything – but they can’t make you believe it. They can’t get inside you." (2.7.26-29, Winston and Julia) Here is an example that is less on "on the nose": the two declare that they would commit heinous acts (murder, maiming children) in the name of the Brotherhood, yet they would never separate even if ordered to do so. cheers
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Re: 1984 quote

on Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:13 am
The first thing that jumped out at me while reading your analysis was you saying that most female and other genders would not have reacted this way. To begin, I pondered the question of other genders being present but failed to understand your point : what other genders were you in fact referring too? I would also like to underline that you are saying most women would not believe in such a way. By expecting a certain behaviour of women, you are going against the purpose of feminism. The entire purpose of feminism is to remove all barriers which prevent women to make their own choices. This analysis brings up the concept of doublethink which is to hold two contradictory opinions and believing both of them at once. I feel as though you believe women should be equal to men however you also feel women should behave a certain way.

Nonetheless, I do agree that Winston’s words are quite terrifying and graphic. I also appreciate the fact that your ideas have a coherent flow.

-Bea (:
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Re: 1984 quote

on Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:42 am
Though the modern feminist movement claims to value transparency and equitable ideals, the ideas and opinions shared here are most definitely askew, biased and heavily weighted in hyperbole, generalities and egregious gaps in logic.

First of all, no matter your gender, we must remember in the world of 1984, the sexual act successfully performed, was rebellion. Desire was thoughtcrime. This removes the sexuality from the situation, making their meetings purely for rebellion. In other words, Julia takes it as a compliment due to WInston's mistaking her for thought police(she takes joy in rebelling), not because he wanted to smash in her skull. Furthermore, we as humans are a product of our environment. Consequently, Oceania being as gruesome and horror filled as it is would lead to the desensitization of humans towards violence explaining Julia’s easy acceptance of Winston's violent comment. A manifestation of this desensitization and exposure to violence would be when Winston comes across a severed human hand and simply kicks it into the gutter.

Secondly, I don’t see how rApE cUltURe afro can exist in a society that criminalizes free thought and sexuality. Also, Winston and Julia's relationship is completely consensual and instigated by Julia, the anti intellectual. Additionally, the relationship in question begins as purely physical due to its rebellious and explorative nature. However, it grows into a love fueled companionship. To say “All the important work left to WInston, while Julia supports him in the background” is obvious, as Winston is our protagonist thus the story naturally follows him, not Julia. It is simple storytelling, not some portrayal of the stereotypical woman.

Thirdly, Julia's dozing off can be attributed to her understanding that revolt is futile as she is an experienced rebel, whereas winston is new and extremely excited by the idea of taking down big brother. To attribute her dozing off to her being “anti-intellectual” Question is not only misguided but erroneous. To diminish the character to a paradigm of as you say “The Woman" is ridiculous as she holds an important position for plot development. Before meeting Julia, Winston had no way of rebelling against Big Brother. After meeting Julia, Winston was able to seemingly communicate with O'brien and attempt to join the Brotherhood. It is clear there is character growth, which can be attributed to Julia’s impact on Winston. Moreover, because Julia has such an influence on the protagonist of the story she has a huge impact on the reader's understanding of the orwellian world of 1984.
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Re: 1984 quote

on Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:59 pm
Thank you all for your inputs, I appreciate the time taken to reply to this post.

Reading the replies, it has become apparent to me that many aspects of my original posts were unclear.

First of all, to answer Beatrice, by "other genders", I just meant anyone else, female or not, would probably not have taken Winston's violent remarks as a compliment. In my opinion, most people, regardless of gender, would have thought of this as a threat to their safety. Thank you for pointing out that this was unclear.

Also, I's like to clarify a point brought up by Sebastian. I understand that rape culture could not be prevalent in a society that demonises sex, however this analysis reflects my present-day interpretation of the novel. Here, I am attempting to draw a parallel between the novel and present day western society. However, your comment does leave me wondering why you choose to put rape culture in brackets. Also, the tone of your comment was aggressive, which I did not appreciate. We are all entitled to our own opinions. I respect yours, but you don"t seem to respect mine.

I am also aware, as Charles pointed out, that Julia and Winston did claim to be in love and have an emotional bond when faced with making sacrifices for the Brotherhood. But, as a reader, I did not see this play out when it came to their actual interactions throughout the novel. I found that this was an inconsistency in the novel. I do completely understand where you're coming from though.

All in all, I just think that when describing the Julia-Winston relationship, this novel takes on a very male-centric tone, and from my modern day, feminist perspective, I think that Julia does reflect a popular female stereotype.
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Re: 1984 quote

on Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:24 pm
Thanks for taking the time to clarifying your analysis. I do agree that Julia does take on a very stereotypical female portrayal. cat

- Bea Smile
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